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	<title>Comments on: That surname thing bites again</title>
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	<description>"We are the women that men have warned us about." - Robin Morgan</description>
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		<title>By: Cammy</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15775</link>
		<dc:creator>Cammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15775</guid>
		<description>ohmykoze, the point is, my father got his name from his father, but everyone considers that name my father&#039;s, not his father&#039;s. I got my name from my father also, but instead of considering it mine, people say it&#039;s...my father&#039;s. WTF? Why does a name passed down from a father &quot;belong&quot; to a man but not to me? Amanda is right, by that logic the name Marcotte only belongs to the originator of the Marcotte line. Regardless of where it came from, my name belongs to me now as much as my father&#039;s name belongs to him. The logic that I have a man&#039;s name anyway so i should just change it to another&#039;s and not see it as any different doesn&#039;t hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ohmykoze, the point is, my father got his name from his father, but everyone considers that name my father&#8217;s, not his father&#8217;s. I got my name from my father also, but instead of considering it mine, people say it&#8217;s&#8230;my father&#8217;s. WTF? Why does a name passed down from a father &#8220;belong&#8221; to a man but not to me? Amanda is right, by that logic the name Marcotte only belongs to the originator of the Marcotte line. Regardless of where it came from, my name belongs to me now as much as my father&#8217;s name belongs to him. The logic that I have a man&#8217;s name anyway so i should just change it to another&#8217;s and not see it as any different doesn&#8217;t hold.</p>
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		<title>By: Marle</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15306</link>
		<dc:creator>Marle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15306</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m always a little surprised when I hear that one of the biggest problems women face when keeping their own names is their husbands - I actually kept mine because that&#039;s what mine wanted.  I wanted us to have the same name, and was really pushing for hyphenating, but he didn&#039;t care.  I talked up how easier it would be to have the same name, and he just didn&#039;t care at all.  Finally, the wedding came and went, and we just didn&#039;t do anything with out last names.  I&#039;m glad now.  My name is short, easy to pronounce, and, well, mine.  No one can pronounce his name, so now when I get calls for &quot;Mrs. *completely butchered attempt at his last name*&quot; I just hang up, because everyone I want to talk to knows who I am.  I haven&#039;t had any problems with keeping my last name, my family just assumed I would and haven&#039;t said anything, and as I understand the only people in his family who have said anything bad about it are saying it in Spanish and in a country that I am not in, so they are easy to ignore.  

The only problem is that now that we&#039;re talking about children he&#039;s realized that he would like all of us to have the same last name for the kids, so we&#039;re going to have a big debate up ahead.  I&#039;m trying to convince him to have use keep our names and go with the Spanish way of naming for the kids, but his immediate family dropped that custom when they came to America, so he doesn&#039;t feel a lot of connection to it.  So who knows what we&#039;ll do?

I don&#039;t think women who change their last names or name their kids after the father are &quot;traitors to feminism&quot; or whatever, but I would like to see more men changing their names or be totally comfortable with their children having the mother&#039;s name instead of viewing it as a way for her to separate them.  It seems like men who have names they don&#039;t like or are awkward just change them to something they like when they hit 18 or whenever, while women just wait until they get married to change it to something they don&#039;t like a whole lot better.  That&#039;s really not fair, or logical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always a little surprised when I hear that one of the biggest problems women face when keeping their own names is their husbands &#8211; I actually kept mine because that&#8217;s what mine wanted.  I wanted us to have the same name, and was really pushing for hyphenating, but he didn&#8217;t care.  I talked up how easier it would be to have the same name, and he just didn&#8217;t care at all.  Finally, the wedding came and went, and we just didn&#8217;t do anything with out last names.  I&#8217;m glad now.  My name is short, easy to pronounce, and, well, mine.  No one can pronounce his name, so now when I get calls for &#8220;Mrs. *completely butchered attempt at his last name*&#8221; I just hang up, because everyone I want to talk to knows who I am.  I haven&#8217;t had any problems with keeping my last name, my family just assumed I would and haven&#8217;t said anything, and as I understand the only people in his family who have said anything bad about it are saying it in Spanish and in a country that I am not in, so they are easy to ignore.  </p>
<p>The only problem is that now that we&#8217;re talking about children he&#8217;s realized that he would like all of us to have the same last name for the kids, so we&#8217;re going to have a big debate up ahead.  I&#8217;m trying to convince him to have use keep our names and go with the Spanish way of naming for the kids, but his immediate family dropped that custom when they came to America, so he doesn&#8217;t feel a lot of connection to it.  So who knows what we&#8217;ll do?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think women who change their last names or name their kids after the father are &#8220;traitors to feminism&#8221; or whatever, but I would like to see more men changing their names or be totally comfortable with their children having the mother&#8217;s name instead of viewing it as a way for her to separate them.  It seems like men who have names they don&#8217;t like or are awkward just change them to something they like when they hit 18 or whenever, while women just wait until they get married to change it to something they don&#8217;t like a whole lot better.  That&#8217;s really not fair, or logical.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Tog</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15298</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Tog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15298</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth noting that the practice of passing a &#039;family&#039; name to offspring is not universal.  Some cultures endow their offspring with only given names.  If you think it&#039;s hard work getting a driving licence or bank account with your husband&#039;s surname (and it is) then pity the plight of an Indonesian acquaintance of mine who only had one name.  He had to invent a second name for himself so that he could officially exist in a culture that assumes everyone has at least two names.  He now calls himself Jon [Hisbirthname].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that the practice of passing a &#8216;family&#8217; name to offspring is not universal.  Some cultures endow their offspring with only given names.  If you think it&#8217;s hard work getting a driving licence or bank account with your husband&#8217;s surname (and it is) then pity the plight of an Indonesian acquaintance of mine who only had one name.  He had to invent a second name for himself so that he could officially exist in a culture that assumes everyone has at least two names.  He now calls himself Jon [Hisbirthname].</p>
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		<title>By: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15297</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnemosyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15297</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;I ask women why they change their last name. They tell me &quot;it&#039;s just easier&quot;. It&#039;s not. How easy is it changing the name on everything from your driver&#039;s licence to your library card? It&#039;s not.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ve never had a reasonable answer to that question when I ask it, either.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s easier because you don&#039;t spend every encounter with bureaucracy trying to prove that you really are married even though you don&#039;t have the same last name.

My husband&#039;s former boss ended up changing her last name to her husband&#039;s because every time she traveled internationally, she had to spend an hour explaining to Customs &amp; Immigration when she returned to the States that she really was married to the man who claimed to be her husband even though they had different last names.  It may not seem like a big deal to you to have to spend an hour twice a year trying to convince Customs that your green card is not a forgery and you really are married and they shouldn&#039;t throw you in detention and deport you, but she thought it was, especially after 9/11.

As for giving your children your last name instead of your husband&#039;s, be prepared for people to ask you forever after where the kids&#039; real father is, because a guy who has a different last name must be their stepfather.  Not to mention having to explain to security at the airport that, yes, he really is their father and not a child abductor even though he has a different last name.

And I say all of this as someone who did keep her own last name after getting married.  I&#039;m going to keep it as long as I can, but if it gets to the point where (as, again, happened to someone I know), I have to explain to the health insurance company after each and every appointment that, yes, I&#039;m covered by my husband&#039;s health insurance and we really are married even though we have different last names, I&#039;ll change it.  Because if it&#039;s a choice between principle and having health coverage, sorry, I have to choose health coverage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>I ask women why they change their last name. They tell me &#8220;it&#8217;s just easier&#8221;. It&#8217;s not. How easy is it changing the name on everything from your driver&#8217;s licence to your library card? It&#8217;s not.</i></p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I&#8217;ve never had a reasonable answer to that question when I ask it, either.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s easier because you don&#8217;t spend every encounter with bureaucracy trying to prove that you really are married even though you don&#8217;t have the same last name.</p>
<p>My husband&#8217;s former boss ended up changing her last name to her husband&#8217;s because every time she traveled internationally, she had to spend an hour explaining to Customs &amp; Immigration when she returned to the States that she really was married to the man who claimed to be her husband even though they had different last names.  It may not seem like a big deal to you to have to spend an hour twice a year trying to convince Customs that your green card is not a forgery and you really are married and they shouldn&#8217;t throw you in detention and deport you, but she thought it was, especially after 9/11.</p>
<p>As for giving your children your last name instead of your husband&#8217;s, be prepared for people to ask you forever after where the kids&#8217; real father is, because a guy who has a different last name must be their stepfather.  Not to mention having to explain to security at the airport that, yes, he really is their father and not a child abductor even though he has a different last name.</p>
<p>And I say all of this as someone who did keep her own last name after getting married.  I&#8217;m going to keep it as long as I can, but if it gets to the point where (as, again, happened to someone I know), I have to explain to the health insurance company after each and every appointment that, yes, I&#8217;m covered by my husband&#8217;s health insurance and we really are married even though we have different last names, I&#8217;ll change it.  Because if it&#8217;s a choice between principle and having health coverage, sorry, I have to choose health coverage.</p>
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		<title>By: Feministe &#187; Light posting this week</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15294</link>
		<dc:creator>Feministe &#187; Light posting this week</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15294</guid>
		<description>[...] Amanda has some thoughts on &#8220;the personal is political.&#8221; See also tigtog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Amanda has some thoughts on &#8220;the personal is political.&#8221; See also tigtog. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-2/#comment-15289</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15289</guid>
		<description>No matter how you slice it though, changing your name to your husband&#039;s upon marriage highly symbolic of your identity being subsumed into your husband&#039;s.  It doesn&#039;t especially matter how YOU personally think about your name or your identity or how personally unattached you are to your birth name.  The cultural message sent when a woman takes her husband&#039;s name (and is often expected to be thrilled and weepy over the honor) is cear as day -- that one embraces one&#039;s symbolic subservience.  

Like Amanda, I don&#039;t fault the women who do this -- many of whom I consider strong feminists whom I respect. We all have to pick our battles, and many of us choose different battles than others.

In contrast, your birth name, which is most likely the product of patriarchal naming choices, also comes to be associated with YOU as an individual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter how you slice it though, changing your name to your husband&#8217;s upon marriage highly symbolic of your identity being subsumed into your husband&#8217;s.  It doesn&#8217;t especially matter how YOU personally think about your name or your identity or how personally unattached you are to your birth name.  The cultural message sent when a woman takes her husband&#8217;s name (and is often expected to be thrilled and weepy over the honor) is cear as day &#8212; that one embraces one&#8217;s symbolic subservience.  </p>
<p>Like Amanda, I don&#8217;t fault the women who do this &#8212; many of whom I consider strong feminists whom I respect. We all have to pick our battles, and many of us choose different battles than others.</p>
<p>In contrast, your birth name, which is most likely the product of patriarchal naming choices, also comes to be associated with YOU as an individual.</p>
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		<title>By: ohmykozy</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-1/#comment-15277</link>
		<dc:creator>ohmykozy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15277</guid>
		<description>Hi Amanda.

I&#039;m having some difficulty with a point you make in your &lt;a href=&quot;http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/15/feminism-friday-a-day-late-on-the-personal-is-political/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;thoughts at length&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;i&gt;The defences were, well, defensive. &quot;Well it&#039;s just your father&#039;s surname anyway.&quot; No, it&#039;s not. It&#039;s mine. I was born with it. And if you follow that argument through, then you are not changing your surname to your husband&#039;s but to your father in-law&#039;s.&lt;/i&gt;

My difficulty is this: None of us were born with a name. We were given names by our parents: first name(s) that our parents liked because they were cool, because they were fashionable (or deliberately not), or because they carried family heritage and so on; and surnames.

I&#039;m guessing that most of us reading this post were given our father&#039;s surname. Could be wrong, but I think not. Why? As opposed to being given our mother&#039;s &quot;maiden&quot; surname, that is.

Possible reasons: our mothers had not kept their own surnames; our parents wanted us to have our father&#039;s surname; it was &quot;easier&quot;; it identified us as part of the family led by our parents .... all of which are just as patriarchal as the reasons condemned above for a woman taking her husband&#039;s surname when she marries. I think this may be the point kate217 was making.

This has got me thinking about just how much of our identity is tied up in our names. Not at the level of does every Daphne want to escape Apollo&#039;s attentions? or is every Christian a Christian? or would a song by Gordon Sumner sell better than one by a guy named Sting?

But this: how much of what people know of me is associated with the name I use now, or the name my parents gave me? And does it matter? 

Your thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Amanda.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m having some difficulty with a point you make in your <a href="http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/15/feminism-friday-a-day-late-on-the-personal-is-political/" rel="nofollow">thoughts at length</a>:</p>
<p><i>The defences were, well, defensive. &#8220;Well it&#8217;s just your father&#8217;s surname anyway.&#8221; No, it&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s mine. I was born with it. And if you follow that argument through, then you are not changing your surname to your husband&#8217;s but to your father in-law&#8217;s.</i></p>
<p>My difficulty is this: None of us were born with a name. We were given names by our parents: first name(s) that our parents liked because they were cool, because they were fashionable (or deliberately not), or because they carried family heritage and so on; and surnames.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing that most of us reading this post were given our father&#8217;s surname. Could be wrong, but I think not. Why? As opposed to being given our mother&#8217;s &#8220;maiden&#8221; surname, that is.</p>
<p>Possible reasons: our mothers had not kept their own surnames; our parents wanted us to have our father&#8217;s surname; it was &#8220;easier&#8221;; it identified us as part of the family led by our parents &#8230;. all of which are just as patriarchal as the reasons condemned above for a woman taking her husband&#8217;s surname when she marries. I think this may be the point kate217 was making.</p>
<p>This has got me thinking about just how much of our identity is tied up in our names. Not at the level of does every Daphne want to escape Apollo&#8217;s attentions? or is every Christian a Christian? or would a song by Gordon Sumner sell better than one by a guy named Sting?</p>
<p>But this: how much of what people know of me is associated with the name I use now, or the name my parents gave me? And does it matter? </p>
<p>Your thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: tigtog</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-1/#comment-15267</link>
		<dc:creator>tigtog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15267</guid>
		<description>The trackback got held up in moderation - odd.  Off to read your post now!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trackback got held up in moderation &#8211; odd.  Off to read your post now!</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-1/#comment-15266</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Marcotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15266</guid>
		<description>Okay, the trackback didn&#039;t work, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/15/feminism-friday-a-day-late-on-the-personal-is-political/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I have thoughts at length.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, the trackback didn&#8217;t work, but <a href="http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/15/feminism-friday-a-day-late-on-the-personal-is-political/" rel="nofollow">I have thoughts at length.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pandagon :: Feminism Friday, a day late, on the personal is political :: September :: 2007</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20070912.917/that-surname-thing-bites-again/comment-page-1/#comment-15265</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandagon :: Feminism Friday, a day late, on the personal is political :: September :: 2007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=917#comment-15265</guid>
		<description>[...] recent rereading of this essay along with the introduction came to mind when I read this post by tigtog about the endless discussion over caving into patriarchal pressure to change you.... She references this highly snarky column by Catherine Deveny, who points out what should be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recent rereading of this essay along with the introduction came to mind when I read this post by tigtog about the endless discussion over caving into patriarchal pressure to change you&#8230;. She references this highly snarky column by Catherine Deveny, who points out what should be [...]</p>
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