This is a spinoff thread from our terrific guest post by Stephanie, “The privilege in your pocket: a manifesto”.
I’m starting it from the first point where I requested that the rudeness (which involved centring of white people and scolding of WOC for their anger) cease. So here you go – if you’d like to centre white people and their feelings in discussions of racism, or discuss that issue of centring, this is the thread for you.
#11 Darlene
“Both people need to do that work, not just one.”Exactly my point, of course, but a person can’t be challenged if they’ve been shut out.
I get the feeling that you think anyone who disagrees with you is rude.
I certainly haven’t been rude to the guest blogger in expressing an opinion (a different opinion doesn’t equate to rudeness). Suggesting I’ve been rude is a convenient way to shut me up, which is some sort of achievement I guess.
# 12 tigtog
Actually, Darlene, the person in question was challenged by Stephanie and others during the discussion and was immovable. You are simply assuming that she cut ties at the first apologist remark, and that is really rude.
There comes a time when if people refuse to acknowledge that one’s own point of view has any validity at all that it is time to stop tormenting yourself by continuing to engage with them. I applaud Stephanie for protecting herself from a continued toxic interaction.
# 13 tigtog
Oh and this:
I get the feeling that you think anyone who disagrees with you is rude.
is both condescending AND rude to Lauredhel.
# 14 Darlene
Okay, I accept that you feel that I was being rude; for for that I’m prepared to apologise. I will note that I feel that anger was mentioned more than once in the post, and while I feel that the author has a right to be angry, I also have the right to say that I find expressions of anger unpleasant and rarely productive (personal experience growing up around domestic violence has coloured my view about that).
I appreciate your clarification on the situation. I agree that there’s a time to cut ties. I don’t know that there’s any hard and fast rules about when that time is. I don’t always think it’s a simple process. Think how hard it is to cut ties when the people in question are your family.
Sorry, tigtog, I’m not sure that was helpful.
Sorry, I think I will just accept that this blog isn’t a friendly place for me to be and cut my losses.
# 15 Lauredhel
Darlene, you’re welcome to post again in this thread when what you have to say is on-topic and about racism, and isn’t all about how antiracist speech and action by women of colour hurts white people’s feelings.
Sorry about the derail, everyone. Back on topic.
# 16 tigtog
Sorry Lauredhel, this needs to be said:
Sorry, I think I will just accept that this blog isn’t a friendly place for me to be and cut my losses.
It’s a shame that you feel that way, Darlene – you have made many welcome contributions to previous discussions. As far as I’m concerned, you as an individual are welcome to comment here anytime.
However, I’m in utter agreement with Lauredhel regarding remarks that admonish people of colour to be nicer when they call Anglos out on racism and apologism for racism. Such remarks will always be challenged here, no matter who makes them, because such remarks are always condescending and rude. Perhaps if you don’t want to be challenged on such remarks you simply ought not to make them.
# 17 Beppie
I think that having the option of not cutting ties with certain people is a big part of privilege. As a white Australian, if another white Australian says something racist, then they aren’t talking about me personally, so it’s easier to make excuses along the lines of “S/he’s racist, but really a ‘nice’ person underneath, so it’s worth maintaining a friendship”– but you really only have that option if you’re in a position of privilege. If, however, you’re in one of the groups that is the target of those attacks, you have the option of either setting out to change the opinion of someone who already sees you as less than an equal, maintaining a friendship with someone who sees you as less than an equal, or cutting ties. Usually the hegemonic/privileged group greatly rewards the second option, and tries to paint the third option as some sort of extremism– when really it’s just a personal recognition of one’s own self worth (of course, non-privileged groups are not supposed to be so uppity as to have a sense of self-worth).
# 19 fuckpoliteness
In regards to anger being expressed at several points in the post, I’d really like to step up in defence of anger.
The anger expressed in the above post (and any anger expressed over injustice and bigotry) is in my experience (and yes, I’ve experienced dysfunction, abuse and domestic violence) a completely different animal from the controlling rage and abuse of the dysfunctional family/abusive partner.
Indignation and fury over injustice, leading to ranting/calls for attention/pointing out injustice/telling bigots off/severing ties with toxic aquaintances bears no relation to the “anger” (or really aggression and controlling violence) of abusive and controlling people.
Anger can be healthy, and expressing it with words healthier still. It can be a great force of motivation and strength. Women and people of colour (and many other marginalised persons) are quite often taken to task for their anger in ways which silence their opinions and experiences. I think equating this anger with the rage and control and violence of abusive parents/partners/strangers is both dangerous and incorrect…
Though I can understand your aversion to anger in general Darlene, as I still go to pieces over raised voices in any situation and have a hard time not hearing anger as aggression…I immediately feel like a small and helpless child, or in danger. But I don’t think that anger per se is the issue with my response there, rather my experiences of fear after bullying and aggression have produced in me a reaction to anger which is unhealthy…I hope I’m not coming off as condescending…I just…anger gives me the strength to continue to point out injustice where I see it and to strive for better things…I hope this has not been offensive
[Two further comments by Darlene have been deleted at Darlene's request. For the information of commenters who would like to communicate with her, she says she is no longer reading. But you're more than welcome to continue discussing the issue.]
Probably the spam filter Darlene. It gets jumpy sometimes I’ve noticed and puts me in moderation for comments I would have thought were perfectly normal.
It’s hard to know when speak up and when to shut up. I get joke emails from a close relative which are often racist/sexist/about rape (not nasty ones, but which are about rape when you look at them in the cold light of day) and I never know how to respond other than by deleting them. I know that she wouldn’t see the problem with them and my reaction would hurt her deeply which I don’t want to do. I guess in many ways this means that I am hiding behind my priviledge and taking the easy way out but I don’t think that the shit storm that would ensue would actually change anything and … maybe I’m just making excuses now. I don’t know.
I know exactly what you mean, Mindy – I’ve been in exactly the same situation. It is extraordinarily hard to knowingly set off a shit-storm by challenging someone of whom you might otherwise be very fond.
That doesn’t mean that it isn’t the right thing to do nonetheless, just that it’s very human to hang back until the moment has been lost and then feel guilty. Then of course, when you do gird your loins and confront someone on their privilege/apologism, the resulting shit storm does make you feel horrible because they will be hurt by your challenge, because it is a big deal – and that’s exactly the problem with those who claim that it isn’t a big deal. If it’s not that big a deal, why do the challenges against bigoted/apologist remarks always result in a shit-storm?
BTW, Darlene was placed into moderation because we were worried about the other thread being derailed. She is greatly offended by being moderated, and no longer wishes to be part of the discussion.
Yup, done the whole ‘burning bridges with toxic acquaintances’ thing of late.
In my case, it was cutting off ties with a very old friend who chose to mock a post of mine on his own blog and then sic his resident trolls on me. I don’t do anger very well, but I managed to contain things. I posted all the hurtful stuff, made an example of it, put my foot down and invited everyone to ‘feel free not to eat the free ice cream’.
Things have calmed down now. I hope a few people who came for the drama stayed to read, but it doesn’t feel like I achieved much.
Apologies for not being entirely on topic – feel free to nerf me if this isn’t appropriate.
Yes, I have to say I was a bit appalled to realise that in standing up for anger I’d unwittingly continued to derail the thread.
I should note that I’m not trying to have a go at everyone I’ve quoted here – this is a conversation worth having, or I wouldn’t have spun it off. Feel free to talk freely here (within the usual limits of no hate speech, etc.)
Great point, fuckpoliteness and, as someone who tends to shut down when there is anger about, it is fantastic to have another explanation of why it is ok (and necessary) for me to raise my voice.
Your contribution, on its own, would have been entirely appropriate. Unfortunately, in conjunction with the previous comments, it inadvertently reinforced the derailment I also enabled with my comments.
I would encourage you to return to Steph’s thread and contribute without the noise of the side-chat.
Thread synchronicity over in the comments on the latest entry at Girls Read Comics and They’re Pissed:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5ktcrd
The first post by UrbaneZombie was, I thought, excellent (and not just because sie is a brother/sister zombie).
MatildaZQs last blog post..Not an Iceberg, Just the Tip: Hancock
Ccsn ppls pssss n prtclr prvlgs r trsrs th ddnt lrd rn thrgh thr ncrdbl cpct fr ndstr nd ntllct.
[Disemvowelled by mod, and given the appropriate MdlT.]
I have to add my voice to this… I also find anger difficult and unsettling when it’s directed it me in an aggressive and controlling way. However, given how angry I get on behalf of myself and other women when gender issues raise their head, I really have no place asking anyone who experiences racism to please be a little polite about it. Because I fucking hate it when people do that to me when *I’m* angry and I feel it’s justifiable.
Sometimes you should accept that maybe you are wrong and the angry person is right, because they see something you don’t.
Christ on toast, flashbacks to “I get that you all engage best through negative discourse” much?
QoTs last blog post..Make it “Alan Ripley” and we’ll talk.
I think one of the best things about online feminism is the ability for women to sharpen their skills in (hostile) debate even if only by observing debate, and not participating in it. Watching other women handle really confronting situations so adeptly, reading the construction of strong arguments, seeing the common pifalls in debate and all from what can be a relatively safe distance. Given the anger you’re going to face as a feminist out there in the real world every feminist should get a few free debate lessons as soon as she signs up for her feminist membership card.
Blue Milk, I know I’ve certainly been able to generate some better responses due to seeing feminists who are much better at dealing with their rage issues than I am confront trolls and the obtuse.