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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s not &#8220;sex&#8221;, it&#8217;s rape.</title>
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	<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/</link>
	<description>That's *MS* Hoyden to you</description>
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		<title>By: For the love of links &#171; blue milk</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-101102</link>
		<dc:creator>For the love of links &#171; blue milk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 10:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-101102</guid>
		<description>[...] One of the worst cases ever of &#8220;this is not sex we&#8217;re talking about, it is rape&#8221;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One of the worst cases ever of &#8220;this is not sex we&#8217;re talking about, it is rape&#8221;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lauredhel</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-99517</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauredhel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-99517</guid>
		<description>Su: Thanks for that. I also found that Curvature thread very insightful, thought-provoking, and productive; and your points about the &quot;I am/She is a...&quot; terminology sometimes being a passive-voice analogy is an important one.  My primary association with the word &quot;survivor&quot; is with people who survive a natural disaster like a flood or earthquake, or a disease like cancer, which makes me a bit less keen on the term personally; because sexual violence has been compared to an unchangeable natural force far too many times.  I recognise that others might not share that.

When the guidelines said &quot;A term that more accurately describes the reality of a person who has suffered in this way is &#039;survivor&#039;&quot;, my first thought was &quot;Not all of them survive.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Su: Thanks for that. I also found that Curvature thread very insightful, thought-provoking, and productive; and your points about the &#8220;I am/She is a&#8230;&#8221; terminology sometimes being a passive-voice analogy is an important one.  My primary association with the word &#8220;survivor&#8221; is with people who survive a natural disaster like a flood or earthquake, or a disease like cancer, which makes me a bit less keen on the term personally; because sexual violence has been compared to an unchangeable natural force far too many times.  I recognise that others might not share that.</p>
<p>When the guidelines said &#8220;A term that more accurately describes the reality of a person who has suffered in this way is &#8217;survivor&#8217;&#8221;, my first thought was &#8220;Not all of them survive.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: su</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97443</link>
		<dc:creator>su</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97443</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, Mortisha.  It is good to see that this is at least a matter that is reflected upon by journalists.  The guideline about victim/survivor terminology is an interesting one.   There was a really good post and debate about this on&lt;a href=&quot;http://thecurvature.com/2008/12/13/why-is-victim-a-dirty-word/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Curvature&lt;/a&gt; recently and I think that there are valid and interesting arguments for either term.

My personal view is that I don&#039;t like either term.   Firstly neither of them express  a sufficient degree of defiance and I find defiance to be a very useful feeling.  It turns powerlessness and  the enforced passivity that is often the essence of victimisation, into action.   Secondly, I think that both terms inevitably stigmatize me for having been subjected to a specific event/s,  and I am not willing to play by those rules, the rules whereby the abused become the shame bearers for the abusers.   Stimgatization  takes a negative event and turns it into an identity, so I think it is very difficult to  speak of one&#039;s experience of a past event in &quot;I am&quot; terms without being stigmatized, however unwillingly.   The statement &quot;I am&quot; is a claim of identity, however you look at it and I refuse to build or define my identity upon those events.  However influential they have been and are, they still are not the defining feature  or foundation of me.  So if the occasion arises I prefer to talk about my experiences of sexual assault  in concrete terms where both the abuser and I take our respective places and the temporal context  is explicit.  

My other qualm is that by taking on a label, either victim or survivor, I can talk about my experience without  ever having to mention the rapist/abuser in anything other than disembodied and abstract terms.   I see this as an extension of the passive voice problem whereby the role of the person who rapes  is discreetly removed from the narrative.  

(Slightly meta but I don&#039;t think  that the label  and stigma of rapist/abuser should be indelible,  however until such time as a rapist/abuser demonstrates that they are safe people to be around then a stigma should indeed be applied to abusers and rapists.   Rapists are extremely prone to recidivism and as much as I believe that all people regardless of behaviour are owed a debt of basic respect, I simply do not accept that rapid assimilation into wider society is a cure for the kind of thinking and behaviour that enables someone to violate another person in this most cruelly intimate manner.    All of my experience, and the experience of people I know supports the diametric opposite, that it is the avoidance of stigma that is the problem, that the all too ready excuse of &quot;he&#039;s just a good bloke who went too far&quot; actually enables rapists to rape again.)    

Trust academic literature for new and improved euphemisms for rape - &quot;Coerced Sexual Debut&quot;.   *sigh* just Google scholar it to see what I mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, Mortisha.  It is good to see that this is at least a matter that is reflected upon by journalists.  The guideline about victim/survivor terminology is an interesting one.   There was a really good post and debate about this on<a href="http://thecurvature.com/2008/12/13/why-is-victim-a-dirty-word/" rel="nofollow">The Curvature</a> recently and I think that there are valid and interesting arguments for either term.</p>
<p>My personal view is that I don&#8217;t like either term.   Firstly neither of them express  a sufficient degree of defiance and I find defiance to be a very useful feeling.  It turns powerlessness and  the enforced passivity that is often the essence of victimisation, into action.   Secondly, I think that both terms inevitably stigmatize me for having been subjected to a specific event/s,  and I am not willing to play by those rules, the rules whereby the abused become the shame bearers for the abusers.   Stimgatization  takes a negative event and turns it into an identity, so I think it is very difficult to  speak of one&#8217;s experience of a past event in &#8220;I am&#8221; terms without being stigmatized, however unwillingly.   The statement &#8220;I am&#8221; is a claim of identity, however you look at it and I refuse to build or define my identity upon those events.  However influential they have been and are, they still are not the defining feature  or foundation of me.  So if the occasion arises I prefer to talk about my experiences of sexual assault  in concrete terms where both the abuser and I take our respective places and the temporal context  is explicit.  </p>
<p>My other qualm is that by taking on a label, either victim or survivor, I can talk about my experience without  ever having to mention the rapist/abuser in anything other than disembodied and abstract terms.   I see this as an extension of the passive voice problem whereby the role of the person who rapes  is discreetly removed from the narrative.  </p>
<p>(Slightly meta but I don&#8217;t think  that the label  and stigma of rapist/abuser should be indelible,  however until such time as a rapist/abuser demonstrates that they are safe people to be around then a stigma should indeed be applied to abusers and rapists.   Rapists are extremely prone to recidivism and as much as I believe that all people regardless of behaviour are owed a debt of basic respect, I simply do not accept that rapid assimilation into wider society is a cure for the kind of thinking and behaviour that enables someone to violate another person in this most cruelly intimate manner.    All of my experience, and the experience of people I know supports the diametric opposite, that it is the avoidance of stigma that is the problem, that the all too ready excuse of &#8220;he&#8217;s just a good bloke who went too far&#8221; actually enables rapists to rape again.)    </p>
<p>Trust academic literature for new and improved euphemisms for rape &#8211; &#8220;Coerced Sexual Debut&#8221;.   *sigh* just Google scholar it to see what I mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Mortisha</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97209</link>
		<dc:creator>Mortisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 05:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97209</guid>
		<description>I just discovered this..... 
International guidelines for journalists reporting violence against women
&quot;A series of guidelines have been designed for journalists who are reporting on violence against women. International Federation of Journalists have developed the guidelines to mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. 

The guidelines are available at –
http://www.ifj.org/assets/docs/185/063/c3093b9-8c8e63f.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just discovered this&#8230;..<br />
International guidelines for journalists reporting violence against women<br />
&#8220;A series of guidelines have been designed for journalists who are reporting on violence against women. International Federation of Journalists have developed the guidelines to mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. </p>
<p>The guidelines are available at –<br />
<a href="http://www.ifj.org/assets/docs/185/063/c3093b9-8c8e63f.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ifj.org/assets/docs/185/063/c3093b9-8c8e63f.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Beppie</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97157</link>
		<dc:creator>Beppie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 01:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97157</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not sure if it was based on a true story or not.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know if that exact story is true, but that sort of thing certainly did happen.  I know that Hannah Arendt discusses the case of a mother who was forced to choose between selecting one of her children to die, and having all her children killed (and herself).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Not sure if it was based on a true story or not.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if that exact story is true, but that sort of thing certainly did happen.  I know that Hannah Arendt discusses the case of a mother who was forced to choose between selecting one of her children to die, and having all her children killed (and herself).</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 01:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97155</guid>
		<description>It has also entered the lexicon as &quot;Sophie&#039;s Choice&quot; because she had to choose which one of her children lived and which one died in a concentration camp - movie of the same name starring Meryl Streep. Not sure if it was based on a true story or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has also entered the lexicon as &#8220;Sophie&#8217;s Choice&#8221; because she had to choose which one of her children lived and which one died in a concentration camp &#8211; movie of the same name starring Meryl Streep. Not sure if it was based on a true story or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Fine</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97142</link>
		<dc:creator>Fine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 00:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97142</guid>
		<description>Qot, I&#039;ve read a good account of this in a book about the Holocaust, which referred to the concept of a &#039;choiceless choice&#039;. That&#039;s when every outcome from your choice is dire it&#039;s not really a choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qot, I&#8217;ve read a good account of this in a book about the Holocaust, which referred to the concept of a &#8216;choiceless choice&#8217;. That&#8217;s when every outcome from your choice is dire it&#8217;s not really a choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Tofuloaf</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97130</link>
		<dc:creator>Tofuloaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 23:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97130</guid>
		<description>&quot;And… you can fuck off out of here right now if you think for a second this was a “gray area”. &quot;

When I used the term &#039;grey area&#039;, I was talking specifically from a legal point of view and what would have to be established in order to convince a jury that there was an absence of consent for the purposes of a s.61I or 61J sexual assault conviction.  Personally, I have no doubt that what those kids did to that girl amount to rape in the way that the term is understood outside of legal circles, but within a courtroom, there&#039;s a lot there that any competent defence lawyer could have played around with, and that is probably why the prosecution were happy to accept a plea to a lesser charge.  

As for why the Tele was happy to use &#039;rape&#039; and &#039;sexual assault&#039; in reporting this particular case, while the Herald wasn&#039;t, I have no idea.  Perhaps they had legal advice to the effect that since the offenders were minors and their names could never be made public, there was no risk of a defamation case.  That is conjecture, though.

Once again, I just want to make it perfectly clear that in no way do I personally believe that the legal &#039;grey area&#039; around the consent in this case ameliorates the culpability of these boys for their actions.  I&#039;m just pointing out that it would have been a less than cut-and-dried case if the prosecution had gone after a sexual assault conviction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And… you can fuck off out of here right now if you think for a second this was a “gray area”. &#8221;</p>
<p>When I used the term &#8216;grey area&#8217;, I was talking specifically from a legal point of view and what would have to be established in order to convince a jury that there was an absence of consent for the purposes of a s.61I or 61J sexual assault conviction.  Personally, I have no doubt that what those kids did to that girl amount to rape in the way that the term is understood outside of legal circles, but within a courtroom, there&#8217;s a lot there that any competent defence lawyer could have played around with, and that is probably why the prosecution were happy to accept a plea to a lesser charge.  </p>
<p>As for why the Tele was happy to use &#8216;rape&#8217; and &#8217;sexual assault&#8217; in reporting this particular case, while the Herald wasn&#8217;t, I have no idea.  Perhaps they had legal advice to the effect that since the offenders were minors and their names could never be made public, there was no risk of a defamation case.  That is conjecture, though.</p>
<p>Once again, I just want to make it perfectly clear that in no way do I personally believe that the legal &#8216;grey area&#8217; around the consent in this case ameliorates the culpability of these boys for their actions.  I&#8217;m just pointing out that it would have been a less than cut-and-dried case if the prosecution had gone after a sexual assault conviction.</p>
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		<title>By: fuckpoliteness</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97099</link>
		<dc:creator>fuckpoliteness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97099</guid>
		<description>Also, by my reading of the situation, this girl had already been seriously assaulted by these boys a number of times already so her angrily saying &quot;OK&quot; to shut them up, to get it over with, caving to the nightmare she was in was NOT FUCKING CONSENT. Apart from anything else, in this situation it can be self preservation. If you know you&#039;re just going to be hurt even *worse* if you struggle, going along with it to minimise the damage is NOT the same as saying Yes Please or even Yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, by my reading of the situation, this girl had already been seriously assaulted by these boys a number of times already so her angrily saying &#8220;OK&#8221; to shut them up, to get it over with, caving to the nightmare she was in was NOT FUCKING CONSENT. Apart from anything else, in this situation it can be self preservation. If you know you&#8217;re just going to be hurt even *worse* if you struggle, going along with it to minimise the damage is NOT the same as saying Yes Please or even Yes.</p>
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		<title>By: tigtog</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090129.3471/its-not-sex-its-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-97092</link>
		<dc:creator>tigtog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=3471#comment-97092</guid>
		<description>I hate that one, QoT.  How long would the average dude (nearly always a dude who runs that line of argument, in my experience)  take to phone a lawyer to  have a contract declared null and void if he was coerced into signing it at the point of a gun?  

Coerced acquiescence is not considered legally valid consent in any other circumstance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate that one, QoT.  How long would the average dude (nearly always a dude who runs that line of argument, in my experience)  take to phone a lawyer to  have a contract declared null and void if he was coerced into signing it at the point of a gun?  </p>
<p>Coerced acquiescence is not considered legally valid consent in any other circumstance.</p>
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