An otter juggling pebbles. What more could you want on a Saturday morn?
Please feel free to use this thread to natter about anything your heart desires, so long as it’s not the subject of an already active thread. (The bushfires are ——–> that way.)
What’s on your mind?
~~~
Update: (for those following the Whedon subthread, direct links to other conversations:
“feminism + fandom = attitude problem”
and lots more here: “Guys and Dolls”
Karen Healey’s place
Dante and the Lobster
Echidne of the Snakes
angriest
io9
Elizabeth Kate Switaj
npr
Racialicious
Bitch PhD
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I recently watched the Torchwood episode “Adrift”, which basically argues that PWD and mental health issues should be locked away from society in order to protect everyone. I won’t go into more details here because I found the whole episode incredibly triggering and have been a mess ever since.
I know other people here are actually in WhoFandom – does anyone know of any fandom-related meta that discussed the various issues with that episode? My first quick glance around found “Oooh, Jack and Ianto were having SEX!” and “Oh, how sad for Gwen” discussions.
Aspirin. Lots and lots of aspirin.
Deus Ex Macintosh’s last blog post..No iffs, just butts
If we have any Linux users in the house, it’s Epoch Time/UNIX time 1234567890 Friday 14 Australian time. (UNIX and Unix-like operating systerms measure the time internally as the number of seconds since midnight, 1 January 1970, not counting leap seconds.) So there’s your geeky alternative to Valentine’s Day, there’s even parties although you’ve only got an hour and a bit to get to them from now: http://www.1234567890day.com/
“date +%s” will get you the time in Epoch time on your Linux commandline.
I have woken up again like a bear with a sore head. Turns out I’ve had some kind of UTI for a while, only I didn’t know…because I *always* get headaches, backaches and nausea for no apparent reason, so those symptoms meant nothing. And I knew I was peeing a lot but figured that’s cos I was drinking a lot of water. No pain…until very suddenly it all hit at once and I had fevers and aches and that eye watering need to pee you get after a bucket of coke and a four hour movie…except ALL THE TIME, even just after going to the bathroom. :(
Anyway, the antibiotics don’t seem to be working, all night I’ve been up and down with so much pain in my head that I cried. Think I ought to be off to the docs again.
@ fuckpoliteness:
((((( FP ))))) Take care of yourself. Sounds like once you’ve seen the doc you need to settle on the couch with favourite DVDs.
Well…I *need* to clean the house, and do a big shop. I think once I see the doc/get better antibiotics I’ll be ok. It’d obviously been in my system longer than we realised. Anyhoo. My one concession to today being anything ‘out of the ordinary’ is that if I feel up to it I’m cooking Rick Stein’s sunken chocolate cake using Valhrona (I don’t know if that’s how you spell it)
Well, coffee in bed would have been nice, but alas, we stayed up too late watching Battlestar Galactica, and by the time we woke, the day was well underway.
@ Anna,
I haven’t seen every Torchwood episode and your summary isn’t ringing any bells for me, so I can’t comment on it. This may mean that I have seen it and was just oblivious to the points you found triggering, in which case I will need to confront my able-bodied privilege on it.
It’s the one where Gwen discovers the rift works both ways and that large numbers of people have gone missing.
Deus Ex Macintosh’s last blog post..Deadbeat Dad at 13
What more could you want on a Saturday morn?
Aspirin. Lots and lots of aspirin.
And more sleep.
Moving from Brisbane to Melbourne – final flight is today.
@ Deus Ex Macintosh:
Yeah, I just checked a plot synopsis on Wikipedia and I haven’t seen it, I’ve only seen the YouTube fragment of the “zomg jack and ianto sex!” moment.
I think that in “Adrift” the idea was supposed to be that these people had been so badly damaged by experiences beyond the realm of current knowledge that niether Torchwood nor anywhere else had the resources to help them — which is not to say that the subtext wasn’t completely horrible and ableist. One has to wonder why Jack didn’t even put some paint on the walls. At the same time, though I think there is a level on which we are supposed to find a lot of the things that Torchwood (especially Jack) does deeply disturbing.
*nodnod* Beppie, I think that was their aim, but they did such an awful job of it. And it left me wanting to kick Jack in the shins a lot.
I’ve found a bit of meta on it (I’m afraid I don’t have the link handy as I am now at the library) that talks about things like how it may have been helpful to Jonah to have his mother involved in his life, how some paint on the walls could have been helpful, stuff like that, which helped, but I must admit, having read a lot of meta about other social issues as presented in Torchwood, I was rather disheartened to not be able to find anything in the usual fandom spaces talking about this.
Ah well. It’s Spring Break here next week. Maybe I’ll write a post about British Television’s tendency to present PWD as Horrible Tragedies. (It would perhaps be a better essay if I could come up with examples other than Torchwood and Merlin, though.)
Anna — I agree, that the episode is flawed in what it does. Sometimes that I am so used to seeing things as problematic when your average viewer tends to just accept it passively. And I will admit that my own initial response to the episode was coloured by privilege that allowed me to diminish what was happening — I acknowledged it as problematic, but then basically dismissed that in favour of discussing other aspects of the episode.
As for the PWD as tragedies thing– there are plenty of examples from Doctor Who– Davros, the Cybus industries guy, Max Capricorn from “Voyage of the Damned”.
Migrainey, or I’d have more to say on DW and PWD…I’ve not watched the episode of TW in discussion, though, so I can’t really comment. I like what Beppie said about how we’re supposed to find disturbing what Jack and Torchwood does, but I fear some of that goes over the heads of the casual viewer. Mostly because then Jack and Ianto did sex, and so much for critical thought.
Generally speaking, I think PWD and those with mental illness are badly portrayed on screen in general, much lacking in shades of grey. There’s a whole rant in me on OCD in the media that’s never gotten written.
In other news, my taping of Dollhouse just finished. Early talk is mixed, and anyone who cares to see me rant on about Joss Whedon’s constant assertion of his allyhood can find that over Attitude Problem, if you haven’t seen it already.
I don’t think the casual viewer will miss the point here, but they may not appreciate it being hammered in with a brick.
Ah nuts. 10kg over baggage limit. No way are my silver platforms being left behind. Out with the toothbrush!
debating whether to clean house and do other housey related errands, or go to the video store and get a tonne of dvd’s to watch in bed on the lappy… the syd weather is definately making it easier to lean towards the latter rather than the former…
and I would like to get the house clean before someone comes round to see the room for rent…
Ah decisions…
Well, from a picnic that got rained out, to women saying ‘what’s the fuss over a rape game?’ (another reason I don’t support the site) to more news that a relative has got a hospital appointment for suspected cancer… I think Sunday might just be hide and wait until the world is over and done with and it’s Monday instead.
~sending out good vibes to Dwt… and hopes she has a weatherproof hidey hole to wait out in until Monday…~
Bene~ I recently found the viral AVR game related to Dollhouse and got very bad vibes off of it. the first few videos are of a girl rooting around in a storage container, being locked in, finding the camera and pleading for help. A lot of creepy kidnap/voyeur vibes in there and being connected to a show about human trafficking isn’t making it any better…
The first episode of Dollhouse is up at $BIGVIDEOHOSTINGSITE, if anyone wants to see it. The first ten minutes include Eliza Dushku riding a big hot sexy motorbike, Eliza Dushku hot-sexy-dancing in a dress that would show her knickers if she sneezed, Eliza Dushku changing her clothes sexily behind a translucent screen, and her mindwipe tech declaring her to be like a virgin again.
I’m finding Whedon’s protestations entirely unconvincing. Newsflash, Joss: if you’re trying to portray the objectification as problematic, how about not engaging in it quite so lovingly?
The NY Times gets it right.
I’ve read some fascinating damning comments online about Dollhouse so far. I think my fav was “Joss, call me when you get some new issues.”
My ability to hunt down the episode and judge for itself is lacking, though. *sigh*
Ah, no, wait I found. *fetches popcorn* I didn’t wnt to go to the archives this morning anyway. :)
Lauredhel, thanks for the link. I’ve yet to watch…and even the feminists I know who’re keen on him seem to indicate that he may have a hard time successfully proving his point amidst the dangerous subject.
I enjoyed dollhouse, but yeah, not exactly problem free by way of representation. Hell he even named the stereotype he was using in the second half of the show :P
I need some relax time, this week has been characterized by the major blow ups about BDSM and trans stuff for me. Bleh.
Btw fp, I’d love to comment, but I have refused to get a wordpress login on principle (the principle being I have too many damn logins as it is kthx). I do enjoy reading though :)
Anyone seen this on Denmark making life difficult for female Muslim police officers?
I hope things improve for all with troubles.
Also, I am knitting a scarf. It is a scarf of win. And writing a post about Ace from Doctor Who as a feminist figure. (Not simultaneously.) Input welcome.
Chally’s last blog post..Happy Valentine’s, feminists
Whoops, forgot the hat tip to Muslimah Media Watch.
Hmm…I likes me a Joss show, but I am having difficulty with the premise I have to say.
Polerin, thanks, I *must* be able to get around that somehow? I can’t see why someone would *have* to have a Wordpress account to comment…I just don’t know HOW to get around it. I tried poking around, but 99% of the wordpress hosting site is a mystery to me. I log in, I approve comments, I write posts. Hell I’m happy I can put photos in properly now.
Chally I do like the sound of a scarf of win. I think there might be a short story in there somewhere…for someone with fiction-writing-abilities (so not me).
I’m still hot/fevery/ill. A few mood swings last night and honestly I am kinda convinced over Teh Evil Of Valentines…had an OMG I look like SHIT on V Day freakout yesterday, followed by a ‘What no presents’ moment, and a ‘HUH?? We’re GOING TO SLEEP’ moment. Nevermind that I didn’t *want* presents, or that I’m sick and he’s had the week from hell and we’d just cooked a great meal (the ratatouille dish that featured in the movie Ratatouille – I tell you the interest from the kids in cooking it and EATING it even though it is full of veggies they OMFG HATE was staggering!) and ate cake and just enjoyed each other’s company…there *was* a feeling of “Well?? Shouldn’t there be *more*?”, and I hated that since it’s not really coming from my beliefs…but anyhow…I digress.
I had to stop reading the article on Rapelay as it was making me both angry and ill.
FP: Go to your Admin interface. Under Settings (in the left sidebar), choose Discussion.
By “Other Comment Settings”, choose “Comment author must fill in name and email”, and make sure “Users must be registered and logged in to comment ” is unchecked. You can adjust your moderation settings on this page also if you wish. Save Changes at the bottom of the page.
FP, go to Settings in the sidebar. Check the sidebar again and ‘Discussion’ should appear underneath Settings. Uncheck ‘Users must be registered and logged in to comment ‘. Get better soon. Ooh, the scarf of win does sound a bit storyish, doesn’t it?
Argh, crossed.
Ha! Jebus. That simple! I feel like a fool, a damned fool I tell you!! But thanks ever so!
fuckpoliteness’s last blog post..Time for more panadol?
Ace as a feminist figure…well, you can always start with bashing the Dalek over the head with a bat. I don’t know, I feel in my gut that she is but I can’t really come up with an explanation.
And fp, feel better. Get rest.
Even The Dollverse is dividing the critic’s reactions to the Dollhouse pilot into “Outright Negative” and “Fairly Positive”.
Rumour has it that the T&A is at least partly due to the Fox network insisting on it, but we may never know.
I don’t know; it may have been a bit less bad if Dushku’s acting and posture weren’t quite so wooden. I don’t remember her being this bad in the Buffyverse. It’s like someone once told her, “Pull your shoulders back and push your breasts out!”, and perhaps “That blank, bewildered expression really suits you!”, and she got stuck there. I could maybe give this a pass or blame this on the directing if she only assumed the woodenness in ‘mindwipe’ mode, but her characters did it also.
Mostly, though, I blame Joss. Even the premise of the show isn’t convincing. It all feels forced and utterly humourless to me.
Yeah, that’s another complaint I’ve heard a lot of, Lauredhel. I didn’t watch it yet–my local PBS station has picked up Spooks (aka MI-5 here in the US) and so I’ve been watching it when it’s on…actually DW S3 is on right now but I’m too lazy to flip back…
Anyway, sorry, DT interlude. I’m really curious to see how I’ll react, because there are a few, a bare few, people who’ve been entirely I love this!!!1, and they’re people I respect, so that has me bewildered.
I think it has the potential to be fascinating, actually. The first ep was nothing extraordinary, but I personally think the NYT article missed part of the point: it’s clear, even from the get go, that the ‘perfect girl’ and the ‘perfect roofie’ etc are precisely what are up for critique. The following, for my money, is a better engagement: http://www.queerty.com/joss-whedon-opens-a-dollhouse-of-infinite-sexuality-with-a-price-20090212/
I’m never going to disagree that there are problematic, objectifying representations of women. They’re everywhere, and sadly they’re horribly sale-able. I think it’s interesting that people attack Joss (i.e., an individual) without seeming to examine a system (including the BOOBSBOMBS obsession of FOX, as someone put it somewhere) that makes such depictions saleable (not you lot, coz I knows you are more… judicious in your disapprovin’ ;-)). But I do think that what’s interesting, even already, is that this objectification – esp. around the motorbike riding and the sneeze-dress – is not morally a-OK. It is, instead, precisely the issue that is already being interrogated via a couple of characters: is this something we should be able to do to people? What are the consequences? And for my feminist money, I think that this has effects on ideas about the production of femininity more generally: if it’s amoral to be doing this to Echo, forcing her to repeat feminine behaviours, isn’t it amoral more generally? In fact, I reckon it’s a more in-depth challenge than such usually are, because it is not that she’s being made to behave in ways she doesn’t want to – there isn’t some essence she’s having to pretend not to have; rather, she’s being made to *want* to behave in ways that fulfil other people’s desires of her. It’s a shift away from the ‘get back to the pure, unsullied essence and away from enacting patriarchally-approved femininity’ (although the story may wind up going there, because that stuff is hard to escape), and starts to ask how and why we can challenge this objectification even when people’s identities are invested in it: when who they are is precisely bound up with a desire to be, say, gorgeous like Eliza Dushku, and wear tiny skirts ;-P. At least, that’s what the concept and the first ep does for me…
But sheesh, with you all on the wooden-ness thing. I think it’s a shame that Eliza is keeping aside her sass for her ‘pre-Dollhouse’ self, coz that’s what I liked about Faith. We’ll see whether she can live up to the showcasing the show’s meant to be. I reckon, actually, that she could prove to be the downfall of the show, and I say this as someone with a total thing for Faith-Eliza…
WildlyParenthetical’s last blog post..Awww…
That Queerty article is the second one I’ve seen today claiming that Dushku’s character “willingly” became a blank-slate human-for-hire. In the beginning of the show, they show her upset, looking trapped, and angrily shouting about having no choice. Where does the “willingly” come from?
I agree with you that the reading you’re talking about is what Joss claims he’s angling for; I just find him unconvincing on the subject. He’s gone on and on and on before about the hot kickarse (in the literal sense) chicks in his shows, and about how sexy they are. To me, in this case, his meta reeks somewhat of the people who sell shit like whatever tired “edgy” piece-of-shit T-shirt is popular today, and then turn around to critics and claim that it’s all political and ironic and FRESH! and shit, and you just don’t GET them, and why can’t we all just have a good old belly laugh about rape and lynching anyhow?! I think he’s trying to have a bob both way, and he’s running into problems with that approach that should have been entirely foreseeable.
“You’re creeped out? You’re supposed to be!” (see io9) is the oldest antifeminist-media trick in the book.
If so many people aren’t “getting” the so-called feminism with Dollhouse, someone of Joss’s experience and intelligence might take a moment to consider that maybe, just maybe, it’s because he’s doing it wrong. None of it’s as new or transgressive as he thinks it is. I guess we’ll know more in coming weeks. If the rape scenes are played for hawt sexy impact, will that begin to change the minds of the people who think that he’s engaging earnestly in critique of TV objectification, I wonder?
If he’s doing it because it makes money, then he’s doing it because it makes money. That just makes him a bloke who wants to die rich, not a feminist champion.
As an aside: I don’t think his shows are anywhere near the most exploitative you’ll find on television. He’s copping this shit because he’s fishing for feminist adulation.
(for those following the Whedon subthread, direct links to other conversations:
“feminism + fandom = attitude problem”
Karen Healey’s place
Dante and the Lobster
Echidne of the Snakes
angriest
io9
Elizabeth Kate Switaj
npr
Racialicious
Bitch PhD
I’ve left another comment over at Bene’s too, as I am too tangled to separate properly (see L’s comment above).
He’s gone on and on and on before about the hot kickarse (in the literal sense) chicks in his shows, and about how sexy they are. To me, in this case, his meta reeks somewhat of the people who sell shit like whatever tired “edgy” piece-of-shit T-shirt is popular today, and then turn around to critics and claim that it’s all political and ironic and FRESH! and shit, and you just don’t GET them, and why can’t we all just have a good old belly laugh about rape and lynching anyhow?!
Yeah, see, I don’t see that he’s saying it’s all political and ironic and fresh and shit. I think he’s depicting something problematic and appealing to the mainstream viewer, in order to unpack why and how it’s problematic. It would be different if the show was more unequivocally ‘whoo! how fun is this, we make people be whoever we want!’ But it’s not. It’s framed through Echo’s unwillingness to become an Active, and the troubling creepiness of her childlike ‘wiped’ state. And even when Topher carries on about being ‘great humanitarians’, we have that dude (I can’t remember his name) being dubious, uncertain, concerned, and Topher looks like a tool (granted, to me, and potentially not to everyone). The text is far too equivocal, I think, to simply be ‘ironic’ (not in the sense that I think you mean, where people say hideously appalling things then try to excuse it by claiming they were being ironic when there’s no evidence of any negotiation with the hideously appalling logic they are allegedly critiquing).
I agree that the objectification is problematic; I’m just not sure that it’s not part of a longer arc that will negotiate with that problematic-ness, the beginnings of which can already be seen. And I do wonder why Joss’s work, unlike, say, J J Abrams’, gets people so grumpy *with him*. I don’t see the appeal for feminist adulation in the vid above, like I said over at Bene’s; in fact, what I see is someone willing to raise feminist issues explicitly in the context of Hollywood. Yes, maybe this is partly because he wants feminist cookies and yes, that’s problematic. I’m not interested in stroking Joss’s ego. But if the effect is to change the level of engagement with feminist issues in Hollywood, even a little, say by making them legitimate and even important subjects for series creators and networks to engage with, I think that the significance of videos like that goes beyond his desire for cookies. Maybe? Or maybe I’m just tired and inarticulate and de-brane-ified.
WP: (this is a bit quick, about to watch BSG) I think we’re basically in furious agreement about the underlying stuff around conversations about trafficking of unwiling people, the importance of bringing these conversations to the fore, racism/ableism, and so on. I should spend more time picking out our points of agreement so that I don’t sound too argue-y, here!
In the hope that I can make my stance clearer, it’s specifically the objectification part I’ve been talking about in this conversation, and since Joss specifically refers to it in this interview, I don’t think I’m too far off base when I say that what he is doing can be boiled down to “Hey guy, you know, we shouldn’t really objectify women, but PHWOAR, get a load of Dushku!” I think he has no credibility with the don’t-objectify message. He’s been doing it and encouraging his viewers to do it for over a decade, and about the most powerful message that comes through solidly from his work is “hey, she’s more than just T & A, but her T & A still rawk”.
As an aside from the objectification question: I’ve seen the “willingly” misinterpretation in more than one place – a TVsquad reviewer did it also, and I haven’t gone out of my way so there may well be others. This is very telling, to me, that what is perhaps the intended audience is already quite happy to wink so that they can happily not get the message and go ahead and enjoy the pornulated stuff while telling themselves that she signed up for it willingly, so she must really want it. There’s a rape-culture issue emerging in this dynamic that is really troubling to me.
All poorly said, because I’m tired an branefried too. BSG now.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I get pissed with Joss personally and not J J Abrams is I can’t even be bothered to watch Abrams stuff. Joss tells me he’s a feminist, that he writes strong female characters. When he doesn’t do that, I feel irritated and angry because I believed him.
I’ll come back to the objectification thing, Lauredhel, but I wanted to comment on the ‘willingly’ thing: yeah, maybe it’s people blinking and skipping out on coercion. Or it’s something where people think that when you sign a contract even when you’re in that problematic position of having very few options, that’s called ‘willingly’. Which to me means that the unfolding of Echo’s unwillingness might have a chance of engaging with questions of consent, and whether it’s actually entirely possible, and whether contract is ever really sufficient to consent (i.e., whether the economic conception of consent is adequate, which, thanks, capitalism, I tend to think it’s not). Anyway :-) Must fly – work!
WP, I’m gonna be in your camp re. Joss until and unless something drags me kicking and screaming out of it. I like your phrase “the unfolding of Echo’s unwillingness”. That sounds like the kind of protagonist’s journey that might cause a lot of people to confront a whole messload of stuff that get normalized in our world. Also the kind of journey that is usually only allowed to male protagonists in fiction, and which could(?) be an allegory of feminist awakening. Haven’t seen it yet, just hoping.
I think there’s more to unpack underneath this. My intial thoughts are to think about why “‘appealing to the mainstream’ = tiny dress and T & A” and how we, as feminists, are expected to react to that (or not); and in what way is Joss’s particular choices of presentation legitimising feminist ideas?
Who is the intended viewer? If he’s saying that he’s trying to make “feminist TV”, why does it exclude and alienate so many people who are already actual feminists? If what he’s really thinking is “fuck off feminists, this isn’t for you, this is remedial feminism for the pornsick” – I think I’d have more respect for him if he actually addressed that and said that out loud. I’ve never heard him so much as allude to this. Instead, we’re all expected to be in orlando’s “kicking and screaming” camp, sucking up the crumbs.
There is more evidence from this Salon interview that Fox was not the one pushing the “sex it up” angle; that, in fact, Joss wanted this sexier and Fox asked him to tone it down.
I’ve added a few more links at comment 39. I’m really looking forward to someone at The Hathor Legacy taking it on!
I think this is a very interesting post on Dollhouse.
It talks a lot about BSG, but I haven’t seen BSG. (I think there are spoilers about who is a Cylon, and I suspect this is somehow important. I really fail at fandom lately.)
I thought JW did not want to work with Fox ever ever again, after being screwed around with Firefly?
Ok…well I just finished watching the first episode. It took me a while to get involved properly. I think that’s the first-coupla-episode wonkiness though. She did indeed ride a bike and dance in a short dress…I didn’t have any particular objection to that. I did cringe at her calling someone a ‘little bitch’ and a few pieces of dialogue that make her personality (s?) less than feminist at times. Plus the heels she could have snapped her ankle in as a negotiator.Other than that, yeah, there was a lotta ‘t and a’ for scenery in the club. The women are the focus and they are stunning. The dialogue wasn’t always sparkling and she did make me cringe when she was supposedly uber-happy in the club. But for now, I’m waiting til I see more. I *liked* people being confronted with the weight of their cavalier decisions to appropriate people’s stories/backgrounds/personalities. I *liked* an abuse victim being able to thwart her attacker, I liked the stranger questioning the ethics of implanting someone else’s memories. I thought it set the scene for some really interesting things. And I’m surprised by that, because having not watched it and read the commentary here I was fully prepared to hate it. I’m certainly not arguing against other interpretations, I just think I too am in the Orlando and WP camp, and not there because I’m duped into sucking up crumbs. I think it has potential.
Um shit…that probably needs to contain a spoiler alert or alternatively be wiped to avoid spoling for others…sorry, is my fifth day of high fever, not thinking to well on stuff like that.
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