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	<title>Comments on: Advice please</title>
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	<description>This *is* my soft, feminine side.</description>
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		<title>By: Ariane</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132320</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132320</guid>
		<description>I have taken a slightly different approach to those mentioned here (although I don&#039;t disagree with those). My daughter isn&#039;t old enough for that, but at 20 months she already has opinions on needing a hat and shoes to leave the house. I can see it coming. So far it isn&#039;t gender biased, so I&#039;m ok.

However, I have two older boys, and I adopted a policy of telling all my kids they were beautiful, all the time. Mostly when they are behaving themselves. I probably tell them they&#039;re beautiful 10 times a day. I don&#039;t know if that is enough to wash out the &quot;beautiful when wearing a dress&quot; message - time will tell. 

So I have taken the approach that feeling beautiful matters, but that it is associated with smiling, being clean, having cuddles, having fun, being silly, making people laugh, and getting your hair brushed, because I am not above using it for my own ends. 

In the vein of Mimbles, I also try to avoid commenting on clothes as a source of beauty. Not sure I am achieving that as well as I should, but if and when it becomes an issue, that in itself will be motivation to be more vigilant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have taken a slightly different approach to those mentioned here (although I don&#8217;t disagree with those). My daughter isn&#8217;t old enough for that, but at 20 months she already has opinions on needing a hat and shoes to leave the house. I can see it coming. So far it isn&#8217;t gender biased, so I&#8217;m ok.</p>
<p>However, I have two older boys, and I adopted a policy of telling all my kids they were beautiful, all the time. Mostly when they are behaving themselves. I probably tell them they&#8217;re beautiful 10 times a day. I don&#8217;t know if that is enough to wash out the &#8220;beautiful when wearing a dress&#8221; message &#8211; time will tell. </p>
<p>So I have taken the approach that feeling beautiful matters, but that it is associated with smiling, being clean, having cuddles, having fun, being silly, making people laugh, and getting your hair brushed, because I am not above using it for my own ends. </p>
<p>In the vein of Mimbles, I also try to avoid commenting on clothes as a source of beauty. Not sure I am achieving that as well as I should, but if and when it becomes an issue, that in itself will be motivation to be more vigilant.</p>
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		<title>By: nico</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132228</link>
		<dc:creator>nico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132228</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have kids but am very interested in this debate. Monica Dux wrote a piece about the dressing daughters in pink for The Age last year - http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/pink-link-to-inequality-20090407-9yx2.html.

She says: 

&quot;So, here&#039;s an idea: no matter how keen your daughter may be on her pretty princess outfit, pack it away and bring it out only for occasional play.

&quot;There may be a few tears, but you might also short-circuit a development path that leads to a grown woman who, deep down, still sees herself as all sugar and spice. And one thing&#039;s for sure — you&#039;ll have greater success controlling what your three-year-old wears than you will if you wait to fight an uphill battle with her as a teenager.&quot;

I am sure implementing  your resolution to avoid pink outfits etc is much more difficult than it reads on paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have kids but am very interested in this debate. Monica Dux wrote a piece about the dressing daughters in pink for The Age last year &#8211; <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/pink-link-to-inequality-20090407-9yx2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/pink-link-to-inequality-20090407-9yx2.html</a>.</p>
<p>She says: </p>
<p>&#8220;So, here&#8217;s an idea: no matter how keen your daughter may be on her pretty princess outfit, pack it away and bring it out only for occasional play.</p>
<p>&#8220;There may be a few tears, but you might also short-circuit a development path that leads to a grown woman who, deep down, still sees herself as all sugar and spice. And one thing&#8217;s for sure — you&#8217;ll have greater success controlling what your three-year-old wears than you will if you wait to fight an uphill battle with her as a teenager.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am sure implementing  your resolution to avoid pink outfits etc is much more difficult than it reads on paper.</p>
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		<title>By: shinynewcoin.wordpress.com/</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132217</link>
		<dc:creator>shinynewcoin.wordpress.com/</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132217</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m the first child in a family of all daughters. When I was little my mum was horrified that I kept being given dolls for presents and she went out of her way to counterbalance  &quot;gendered&quot; gifts. So when I got given a doll by my grandparents, mum would buy a tonka truck. Lego, blackboard &amp; chalk and a tape player were among non-gendered toys I remember. We were never allowed barbie dolls.

By the time my youngest sister was born 23 years later my mum said she went to all that effort to no avail. We were going to grow up exactly the way we were going to grow up and all she could present us with was options. So she didn&#039;t bother steering my sister away from pink toys, fairy princess costumes etc, all of which the kid took to with enthusiasm. I guess it remains to be seen whether she&#039;ll grow out of it or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m the first child in a family of all daughters. When I was little my mum was horrified that I kept being given dolls for presents and she went out of her way to counterbalance  &#8220;gendered&#8221; gifts. So when I got given a doll by my grandparents, mum would buy a tonka truck. Lego, blackboard &amp; chalk and a tape player were among non-gendered toys I remember. We were never allowed barbie dolls.</p>
<p>By the time my youngest sister was born 23 years later my mum said she went to all that effort to no avail. We were going to grow up exactly the way we were going to grow up and all she could present us with was options. So she didn&#8217;t bother steering my sister away from pink toys, fairy princess costumes etc, all of which the kid took to with enthusiasm. I guess it remains to be seen whether she&#8217;ll grow out of it or not.</p>
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		<title>By: chinda63</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132213</link>
		<dc:creator>chinda63</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132213</guid>
		<description>My daughter loves pink and purple in things like toys (she couldn&#039;t just have a DS, she had to have a pink DS), but oddly when it comes to clothes, she wants to wear jeans and usually bold coloured red/blue or black tops.  She is very sporty and active and is generally not at all focussed on her looks.  She is only 9, but I hope this augurs well for the future ... although I am only too aware how quickly the terrible teens can hit.
OTOH, I have a four year-old foster son who LOVES my daughter&#039;s toys; whose favourite colour is pink, who dresses is pink fairy outfits and who loves nothing more than hanging with the girls.  BUT: put a car anywhere near him and he reverts to a full-on stereotypical  vroom, vroom speed racer boy.  It&#039;s hilarious to watch, particularly if he is playing with his cars WHILE wearing his fairy costume :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My daughter loves pink and purple in things like toys (she couldn&#8217;t just have a DS, she had to have a pink DS), but oddly when it comes to clothes, she wants to wear jeans and usually bold coloured red/blue or black tops.  She is very sporty and active and is generally not at all focussed on her looks.  She is only 9, but I hope this augurs well for the future &#8230; although I am only too aware how quickly the terrible teens can hit.<br />
OTOH, I have a four year-old foster son who LOVES my daughter&#8217;s toys; whose favourite colour is pink, who dresses is pink fairy outfits and who loves nothing more than hanging with the girls.  BUT: put a car anywhere near him and he reverts to a full-on stereotypical  vroom, vroom speed racer boy.  It&#8217;s hilarious to watch, particularly if he is playing with his cars WHILE wearing his fairy costume :-)</p>
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		<title>By: icecreamempress.livejournal.com/</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132207</link>
		<dc:creator>icecreamempress.livejournal.com/</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132207</guid>
		<description>I think telling her you feel that that kind of thing is silly is really helpful reinforcement.  If she prefers a pink bowl, fine, but you&#039;re not going to rearrange your life around this stuff.

Also, it used to be that blue was the girls&#039; color (because it was &quot;soft&quot; and &quot;the Virgin Mary&#039;s color&quot;), and pink was the boys&#039; color (because it was &quot;forceful&quot; and a junior version of manly manly red).  This was back in the days of your daughter&#039;s grandparents&#039; grandparents, most likely, but it might still be a poser for her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think telling her you feel that that kind of thing is silly is really helpful reinforcement.  If she prefers a pink bowl, fine, but you&#8217;re not going to rearrange your life around this stuff.</p>
<p>Also, it used to be that blue was the girls&#8217; color (because it was &#8220;soft&#8221; and &#8220;the Virgin Mary&#8217;s color&#8221;), and pink was the boys&#8217; color (because it was &#8220;forceful&#8221; and a junior version of manly manly red).  This was back in the days of your daughter&#8217;s grandparents&#8217; grandparents, most likely, but it might still be a poser for her.</p>
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		<title>By: hmphh</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132204</link>
		<dc:creator>hmphh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132204</guid>
		<description>I work with 4-5 year olds. We get all sorts of gender stuff and usually I use a similar strategy to kaethe, I ask, &#039;but why?&#039;  Sometimes they give me a rule as an answer, and then I think of exceptions to the rule. So, one discussion we often have is girls have long hair and boys have short hair, and I ask but why, and they&#039;ll explain because girls always have long hair, and I&#039;ll ask, &#039;but what about ...&#039;s mum? She has short hair and she&#039;s a girl?&#039; and then usually there&#039;s a bit quiet as they digest this information. So maybe turn those &#039;but why?&#039; questions around on your daughter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work with 4-5 year olds. We get all sorts of gender stuff and usually I use a similar strategy to kaethe, I ask, &#8216;but why?&#8217;  Sometimes they give me a rule as an answer, and then I think of exceptions to the rule. So, one discussion we often have is girls have long hair and boys have short hair, and I ask but why, and they&#8217;ll explain because girls always have long hair, and I&#8217;ll ask, &#8216;but what about &#8230;&#8217;s mum? She has short hair and she&#8217;s a girl?&#8217; and then usually there&#8217;s a bit quiet as they digest this information. So maybe turn those &#8216;but why?&#8217; questions around on your daughter.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132203</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132203</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the advice everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the advice everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Radfem</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132202</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Radfem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132202</guid>
		<description>As others have said, Mindy, it&#039;s a good idea to talk to her about it. It&#039;s amazing how much a three year old can comprehend about their world. I remember my daughter at a very young age responded well when I pointed out the unfairness of girl and boy expectations. Maybe you could talk about how it isn&#039;t fair that so many people make girls and women feel bad about not being pretty enough but not boys. As her parent you would know best how to explain things to her but I always found that some version of the truth worked best with my daughter and at almost 19  she&#039;s about as free of harmful femininity as any woman in a patriarchy could be.

As you said it isn&#039;t coming from her parents, it&#039;s coming from a society that promotes this shit from the cradle onwards. You can&#039;t get away from that but you can help her learn to interpret it and see through it.

This youtube video highlights the way Disney acts as an agent of socialisation, not that it&#039;s just coming from Disney, it&#039;s everywhere, but this is a real eye-opener.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&amp;hl=en-GB&amp;v=qsy3BblcjCA

There is also a post on my site somewhere about the harmful gender race and class messages in kid&#039;s entertainment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As others have said, Mindy, it&#8217;s a good idea to talk to her about it. It&#8217;s amazing how much a three year old can comprehend about their world. I remember my daughter at a very young age responded well when I pointed out the unfairness of girl and boy expectations. Maybe you could talk about how it isn&#8217;t fair that so many people make girls and women feel bad about not being pretty enough but not boys. As her parent you would know best how to explain things to her but I always found that some version of the truth worked best with my daughter and at almost 19  she&#8217;s about as free of harmful femininity as any woman in a patriarchy could be.</p>
<p>As you said it isn&#8217;t coming from her parents, it&#8217;s coming from a society that promotes this shit from the cradle onwards. You can&#8217;t get away from that but you can help her learn to interpret it and see through it.</p>
<p>This youtube video highlights the way Disney acts as an agent of socialisation, not that it&#8217;s just coming from Disney, it&#8217;s everywhere, but this is a real eye-opener.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&amp;hl=en-GB&amp;v=qsy3BblcjCA" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&amp;hl=en-GB&amp;v=qsy3BblcjCA</a></p>
<p>There is also a post on my site somewhere about the harmful gender race and class messages in kid&#8217;s entertainment.</p>
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		<title>By: kaethe</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132200</link>
		<dc:creator>kaethe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132200</guid>
		<description>The gender binary is insidious.  It is daycare, it&#039;s family, it&#039;s preschooler programming, it&#039;s you know, societal.  It hits at three.  Even very well-meaning and otherwise enlightened people would be apalled (I&#039;m sure I would be) to see how much it creeps in.

So, my advice gleaned from rearing two daughters, now ten and seven.  1)  You can&#039;t stop it, but you can subvert it.  Whenever she expresses something that buys into the strict binary, ask her to explain it to you.  Are all blues for boys?  How about baby blue?  or teal?  Is purple for boys or girls?  what about red?
2) Don&#039;t tell her she&#039;s beautiful.  Compliment her on what she does, not how she looks.  After all, isn&#039;t this what we want for our grown-up selves?    3) Going back to one, don&#039;t tell her colors are for everyone, ask her questions until she figures it our for herself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The gender binary is insidious.  It is daycare, it&#8217;s family, it&#8217;s preschooler programming, it&#8217;s you know, societal.  It hits at three.  Even very well-meaning and otherwise enlightened people would be apalled (I&#8217;m sure I would be) to see how much it creeps in.</p>
<p>So, my advice gleaned from rearing two daughters, now ten and seven.  1)  You can&#8217;t stop it, but you can subvert it.  Whenever she expresses something that buys into the strict binary, ask her to explain it to you.  Are all blues for boys?  How about baby blue?  or teal?  Is purple for boys or girls?  what about red?<br />
2) Don&#8217;t tell her she&#8217;s beautiful.  Compliment her on what she does, not how she looks.  After all, isn&#8217;t this what we want for our grown-up selves?    3) Going back to one, don&#8217;t tell her colors are for everyone, ask her questions until she figures it our for herself.</p>
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		<title>By: MomTFH</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090629.5547/advice-please/comment-page-1/#comment-132197</link>
		<dc:creator>MomTFH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=5547#comment-132197</guid>
		<description>I am in a slightly different situation, since I am raising two cis gendered boys right now. But, I do hear biases from the greater world reflected in their interactions with me, sometimes based on gender, skin color, or ableism. 

I try to consistently, gently, point out the error in their comment in a mild, age appropriate manner. I also try to stash that away for future teaching points. Although my younger son was brought up in a house with a roommate with a daughter with dark brown skin who he adored and worshiped, he came home from school one day a year later with the idea that darker skin was somehow bad.

Not only did I point out immediately that no, that wasn&#039;t correct, people have all different skin colors, hair colors, and eye colors, and what we like about them is if they are nice, or smart, or kind, etc. I also remember to point out other examples of people with different physical characteristics who we respect in the future, without making a big deal about it. A sentence or two, not a lecture. He&#039;s four now.

When it comes to gender issues, I think I lead mostly by example, but that may be easier with boys whose gender expression has tended to be rather culturally typical, which by default is more &quot;feminist&quot; than typical young girls&#039; gender expression. My younger son very rarely says something is a girl&#039;s toy or a girl&#039;s occupation, although it has come up. He has always been a fan of pink, since he idolized everything his former housemate loved, and she loved pink. 

Once my older son came home from school and told me that some kid at school had said his favorite color, purple, was a girl color. First, I told him to ask his friend if their was a penis or a vagina on a crayon, because I wasn&#039;t really sure how you could tell. (Inappropriate for an eight year old? Maybe to some, but we&#039;re scientists in this house).

I also told him not to really say that at school, but to just say purple is the color of kings, and to tell his friend not to limit himself. 

Maybe you can focus on how great it is that girls can be pretty wearing dresses and wearing  jeans, and how lucky we are to get to have so many choices that are acceptable. You could point out articles of your own, not frilly clothing that you especially like. It can be for reasons other than their appearance, too. This fabric on this old tshirt is so soft, I can climb a  tree in these jeans, etc. 

It may be tempting to totally discount being interested in looking pretty, but that may be too contrary to her priorities right now. Maybe you can just show her that pretty can be a very wide definition. 

I am not sure if you would find this appropriate at all, but as a totally not into fashion and models person, I have really liked the real-life models they use for &lt;a href=&quot;http://shanalogic.com/category.php?category_id=127&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this site&lt;/a&gt;. (Totally unsolicited link, I have never even bought anything here, although some stuff is certainly cute). They have models of various sizes and ethnicities, and they wear t shirts and all colors. Maybe you can find ones you both think are &quot;pretty&quot; together?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in a slightly different situation, since I am raising two cis gendered boys right now. But, I do hear biases from the greater world reflected in their interactions with me, sometimes based on gender, skin color, or ableism. </p>
<p>I try to consistently, gently, point out the error in their comment in a mild, age appropriate manner. I also try to stash that away for future teaching points. Although my younger son was brought up in a house with a roommate with a daughter with dark brown skin who he adored and worshiped, he came home from school one day a year later with the idea that darker skin was somehow bad.</p>
<p>Not only did I point out immediately that no, that wasn&#8217;t correct, people have all different skin colors, hair colors, and eye colors, and what we like about them is if they are nice, or smart, or kind, etc. I also remember to point out other examples of people with different physical characteristics who we respect in the future, without making a big deal about it. A sentence or two, not a lecture. He&#8217;s four now.</p>
<p>When it comes to gender issues, I think I lead mostly by example, but that may be easier with boys whose gender expression has tended to be rather culturally typical, which by default is more &#8220;feminist&#8221; than typical young girls&#8217; gender expression. My younger son very rarely says something is a girl&#8217;s toy or a girl&#8217;s occupation, although it has come up. He has always been a fan of pink, since he idolized everything his former housemate loved, and she loved pink. </p>
<p>Once my older son came home from school and told me that some kid at school had said his favorite color, purple, was a girl color. First, I told him to ask his friend if their was a penis or a vagina on a crayon, because I wasn&#8217;t really sure how you could tell. (Inappropriate for an eight year old? Maybe to some, but we&#8217;re scientists in this house).</p>
<p>I also told him not to really say that at school, but to just say purple is the color of kings, and to tell his friend not to limit himself. </p>
<p>Maybe you can focus on how great it is that girls can be pretty wearing dresses and wearing  jeans, and how lucky we are to get to have so many choices that are acceptable. You could point out articles of your own, not frilly clothing that you especially like. It can be for reasons other than their appearance, too. This fabric on this old tshirt is so soft, I can climb a  tree in these jeans, etc. </p>
<p>It may be tempting to totally discount being interested in looking pretty, but that may be too contrary to her priorities right now. Maybe you can just show her that pretty can be a very wide definition. </p>
<p>I am not sure if you would find this appropriate at all, but as a totally not into fashion and models person, I have really liked the real-life models they use for <a href="http://shanalogic.com/category.php?category_id=127" rel="nofollow">this site</a>. (Totally unsolicited link, I have never even bought anything here, although some stuff is certainly cute). They have models of various sizes and ethnicities, and they wear t shirts and all colors. Maybe you can find ones you both think are &#8220;pretty&#8221; together?</p>
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