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	<title>Comments on: Quickhit: Invisible women, invisible politics</title>
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	<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/</link>
	<description>"We are the women that men have warned us about." - Robin Morgan</description>
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		<title>By: tigtog</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133959</link>
		<dc:creator>tigtog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 06:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133959</guid>
		<description>Linda, as far as I can tell our online relationship went south months ago after you accused me of holding one commentor above you in the blog&#039;s hierarchy simply because I disagreed with your response to something written by that commentor.  As far as I was concerned then and now, the following week it could easily have been me disagreeing with that commentor and agreeing with you on some other matter, but you chose to interpret it as some sort of avowal of the other commentor having a permanently higher status in the commentariat.  I probably didn&#039;t respond to that as well as I could have, because it seemed like such a blatantly incorrect evaluation of the situation that I was honestly gobsmacked. 

You have made several similar accusations in the months since, and not surprisingly each time I&#039;ve resented the accusation a little more.  Sometimes a difference of opinion is just a difference of opinion, and to be told that my expression of my own opinions is misusing moderator privileges to reinforce some hierarchy seems like just another way of shutting &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; voice down, to be frank.  It appears that only if I conform to your way of doing things will you then view me as not playing some sort of dominance game over you, which seems rather upside-down.

Because of your accusations I&#039;ve come to deeply dislike interacting with you, especially since reading some of what you&#039;ve written on your blog judging me as a hypocrite and bully, and there&#039;s no doubt that this colours my responses to you, but from my side of this strife I see it as purely a clash of personalities.  This is of course not to claim that I am in any way immune from reacting in unthinking ways that do reinforce patterns of dominance, just that I honestly don&#039;t think that&#039;s what I&#039;m doing in my dealings with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda, as far as I can tell our online relationship went south months ago after you accused me of holding one commentor above you in the blog&#8217;s hierarchy simply because I disagreed with your response to something written by that commentor.  As far as I was concerned then and now, the following week it could easily have been me disagreeing with that commentor and agreeing with you on some other matter, but you chose to interpret it as some sort of avowal of the other commentor having a permanently higher status in the commentariat.  I probably didn&#8217;t respond to that as well as I could have, because it seemed like such a blatantly incorrect evaluation of the situation that I was honestly gobsmacked. </p>
<p>You have made several similar accusations in the months since, and not surprisingly each time I&#8217;ve resented the accusation a little more.  Sometimes a difference of opinion is just a difference of opinion, and to be told that my expression of my own opinions is misusing moderator privileges to reinforce some hierarchy seems like just another way of shutting <em>my</em> voice down, to be frank.  It appears that only if I conform to your way of doing things will you then view me as not playing some sort of dominance game over you, which seems rather upside-down.</p>
<p>Because of your accusations I&#8217;ve come to deeply dislike interacting with you, especially since reading some of what you&#8217;ve written on your blog judging me as a hypocrite and bully, and there&#8217;s no doubt that this colours my responses to you, but from my side of this strife I see it as purely a clash of personalities.  This is of course not to claim that I am in any way immune from reacting in unthinking ways that do reinforce patterns of dominance, just that I honestly don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m doing in my dealings with you.</p>
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		<title>By: blessed</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133956</link>
		<dc:creator>blessed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133956</guid>
		<description>http://www.blognow.com.au/lookingglassalice/165794/More_ways_to_shit_on_women_Part_47_-_laugh_at_violence_against_us_trigger_warning.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.blognow.com.au/lookingglassalice/165794/More_ways_to_shit_on_women_Part_47_-_laugh_at_violence_against_us_trigger_warning.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.blognow.com.au/lookingglassalice/165794/More_ways_to_shit_on_women_Part_47_-_laugh_at_violence_against_us_trigger_warning.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133954</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 03:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133954</guid>
		<description>Linda, if I understand your post correctly, you don&#039;t like HaT, you don&#039;t think it&#039;s a feminist site, and you don&#039;t like a lot of the commenters here.

I&#039;m not sure what to say to that.  Certainly I&#039;ve felt similarly about other popular feminist sites, and wild ponies couldn&#039;t drag me back to them.  I didn&#039;t like the culture anymore, didn&#039;t feel welcome, and certainly have had many conversations with people about it.  I know there&#039;s nothing those sites could do now to make me think better of them.

I think I should bow out of this thread now, since I can&#039;t think I&#039;ll contribute anything of use to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda, if I understand your post correctly, you don&#8217;t like HaT, you don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a feminist site, and you don&#8217;t like a lot of the commenters here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what to say to that.  Certainly I&#8217;ve felt similarly about other popular feminist sites, and wild ponies couldn&#8217;t drag me back to them.  I didn&#8217;t like the culture anymore, didn&#8217;t feel welcome, and certainly have had many conversations with people about it.  I know there&#8217;s nothing those sites could do now to make me think better of them.</p>
<p>I think I should bow out of this thread now, since I can&#8217;t think I&#8217;ll contribute anything of use to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Radfem</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133952</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Radfem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133952</guid>
		<description>Anna, both Fine and Allordinary2 have said more than I would dare to say here, on the subject. But I have expanded on it at my place.  This part of Allordinary2@42 really resonates for me.

&quot;...but I don’t get how you reconcile the desire to subvert oppressive structures of domination with the way you treat people don’t agree with you here.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna, both Fine and Allordinary2 have said more than I would dare to say here, on the subject. But I have expanded on it at my place.  This part of Allordinary2@42 really resonates for me.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;but I don’t get how you reconcile the desire to subvert oppressive structures of domination with the way you treat people don’t agree with you here.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133948</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133948</guid>
		<description>Linda, could you expand on your comment?  I&#039;m not understanding it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda, could you expand on your comment?  I&#8217;m not understanding it.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Radfem</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133947</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Radfem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133947</guid>
		<description>Anna@45 - it&#039;s not about snark, but group dynamics and insider/outsider politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna@45 &#8211; it&#8217;s not about snark, but group dynamics and insider/outsider politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133939</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133939</guid>
		<description>@Anna Winter (and Fine, to a degree, since you quoted this and agreed with it with no alteration)

&lt;blockquote&gt;In a thread about a man with quadriplegia who wants to die it’s useful and important to hear the experience of other PWD. But that isn’t the same as letting their ideas and arguments stand unchallenged because of their experiences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Maybe I&#039;m just doing this whole &quot;worst possible reading&quot; thing (and now I&#039;m being snarky, I suppose), but this reads like a pretty major false dichotomy, right here. I don&#039;t see where anyone&#039;s said anything beyond the fact that perhaps it&#039;s important to place a little more weight on the experiences of people who&#039;s day to day lives are the subject of the discussion to hand precisely because these are their lives. Perhaps that doesn&#039;t mesh well with some idea of valuing everyone&#039;s voice equally, but I tend to find that presupposes a problematic version of &#039;equally&#039; that ultimately ends up serving oppressive structures. To characterise that as asking for their ideas not to be challenged is a pretty uncharitable reading of the order you&#039;re throwing accusations around here about, to be perfectly frank.

I also think it&#039;s interesting (with no comment on intention) that you used the passive &quot;hear&quot; rather than the active &quot;listen to&quot; when referencing a thread where many PWD felt their experiences weren&#039;t being listened to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anna Winter (and Fine, to a degree, since you quoted this and agreed with it with no alteration)</p>
<blockquote><p>In a thread about a man with quadriplegia who wants to die it’s useful and important to hear the experience of other PWD. But that isn’t the same as letting their ideas and arguments stand unchallenged because of their experiences.</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m just doing this whole &#8220;worst possible reading&#8221; thing (and now I&#8217;m being snarky, I suppose), but this reads like a pretty major false dichotomy, right here. I don&#8217;t see where anyone&#8217;s said anything beyond the fact that perhaps it&#8217;s important to place a little more weight on the experiences of people who&#8217;s day to day lives are the subject of the discussion to hand precisely because these are their lives. Perhaps that doesn&#8217;t mesh well with some idea of valuing everyone&#8217;s voice equally, but I tend to find that presupposes a problematic version of &#8216;equally&#8217; that ultimately ends up serving oppressive structures. To characterise that as asking for their ideas not to be challenged is a pretty uncharitable reading of the order you&#8217;re throwing accusations around here about, to be perfectly frank.</p>
<p>I also think it&#8217;s interesting (with no comment on intention) that you used the passive &#8220;hear&#8221; rather than the active &#8220;listen to&#8221; when referencing a thread where many PWD felt their experiences weren&#8217;t being listened to.</p>
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		<title>By: blessed</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133936</link>
		<dc:creator>blessed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133936</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a homebirth wingnut according to Crikey. I think I can skip reading shit like that without too much distress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a homebirth wingnut according to Crikey. I think I can skip reading shit like that without too much distress.</p>
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		<title>By: tigtog</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133924</link>
		<dc:creator>tigtog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133924</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Pharoah-Katt for the apology for that part of your behaviour which was unhelpful.    I appreciate you taking the time to think about it.

* * *
I was going to divert to another matter raised in the course of this discussion thread, but I might start a new thread for that.  This one&#039;s getting long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Pharoah-Katt for the apology for that part of your behaviour which was unhelpful.    I appreciate you taking the time to think about it.</p>
<p>* * *<br />
I was going to divert to another matter raised in the course of this discussion thread, but I might start a new thread for that.  This one&#8217;s getting long.</p>
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		<title>By: pharaoh-katt.livejournal.com/</title>
		<link>http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090819.6278/quickhit-invisible-women-invisible-politics/comment-page-3/#comment-133922</link>
		<dc:creator>pharaoh-katt.livejournal.com/</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=6278#comment-133922</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This paragraph is directed at everybody, not you in particular and certainly not excluding me: perhaps everybody taking a bit more time to write very very clearly, avoiding rants and characterisations that are possibly defamatory (and thus placing the publisher (me) at risk of litigation), and also taking time to read each other a bit more carefully, could avoid some of this perception that HaT is not always a safe space for those who swim against the Hoydenish consensus.&lt;/i&gt;

I won&#039;t speak for anyone else, but I know my comments mocking PC&#039;s use of language were out of line and unhelpful. For that, I apologise. I found his tone to be condescending and rude, and my natural response to that is anger, and I deal with anger by being snarky. 

I think my reaction is probably a combination of &quot;I&#039;m fucking *angry*!&quot; and the other blogs I frequent. I was introduced to blogging through the BDSM wars, and if you can&#039;t be angry in that situation, you can&#039;t survive. Everything just feels so intensly *personal* to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This paragraph is directed at everybody, not you in particular and certainly not excluding me: perhaps everybody taking a bit more time to write very very clearly, avoiding rants and characterisations that are possibly defamatory (and thus placing the publisher (me) at risk of litigation), and also taking time to read each other a bit more carefully, could avoid some of this perception that HaT is not always a safe space for those who swim against the Hoydenish consensus.</i></p>
<p>I won&#8217;t speak for anyone else, but I know my comments mocking PC&#8217;s use of language were out of line and unhelpful. For that, I apologise. I found his tone to be condescending and rude, and my natural response to that is anger, and I deal with anger by being snarky. </p>
<p>I think my reaction is probably a combination of &#8220;I&#8217;m fucking *angry*!&#8221; and the other blogs I frequent. I was introduced to blogging through the BDSM wars, and if you can&#8217;t be angry in that situation, you can&#8217;t survive. Everything just feels so intensly *personal* to me.</p>
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