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tigtog (aka Viv) is the founder of this blog. She lives in Sydney, Australia: husband, 2 kids, cat, house, garden, just enough wine-racks and (sigh) far too few bookshelves.

This author has written 3286 posts for Hoyden About Town. Read more about tigtog »

12 responses to “Lessons from My Lai & The Extras”

  1. SunlessNick

    This is one of those posts where I have nothing useful to say, but just have to say something, if only to mark how great it is.

  2. dylan agh

    the Milgram experiment and variations, and the Stanford prison experiment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Replications_and_variations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Replications_and_variations

    are what i reach for in this subject. (sorry for the Wikipedia links)

    these are brutal experiments that would not be cleared by any uni ethics committee now, tho some TV stations seem to enjoy re-staging variations.

    Where do we start? FWIW i start with Epicurus and his ideas about responsibility, personal and collective. the heros i wish to pass on to my children are mostly people who kicked against the tide, Wollstonecraft and Godwin, Simone d’B, Darwin and Woody Guthrie to name a few, always remembering the collective response of free thinkers when Dylan went electric.

    so yeah its complicated and as much as i wish to be a, and raise, ‘Thompsons’ i also hope i never have to find out, tho it is only seven years till High school starts, i should know by then, the bullying culture being what it is.

  3. Chris

    Is this any different to just very strong peer group pressure? When the culture of the group is good it works to advantage – people conform and are less likely to do bad things. But when the culture is bad the reverse is true.

  4. Rachel

    thank you for bringing this issue up. i remember learning about this in my World Sociology class in university. yes, i wasn’t exposed to the real truth of these events until college.

    i dont have anything to add, but I think this is an extremely important issues and I’m happy to see people talking about it. I’m working on a project right now about America’s reluctance to memorialize tragedies in which Americans took part, and it’s disgusting how long it has taken the American government to speak the truth of what happened. and yet they still can’t fully admit it.

  5. Rachel

    also, extra points for incorporating Extras into the discussion!

  6. blue milk

    Great post tigtog, is something I think about a lot, too, in raising a son.

    I wish Flea’s post on her old blog, One Good Thing was still accessible so I could link to it here – do you remember her letter to her sons about the My Lai incident and intervening when you see sexual assault about to happen? Was effing fantastic (one of my favourite things ever written on the Internet) and so relevant to your post.

  7. orlando

    I think about this subject an awful lot. In fact, I find it one of the crucial questions about what it is to be human.

    So I’ve just been reading Stanley Milgram’s book about his experiments Obedience to Authority, and I came across this curiosity. He only used one batch of female subjects for his major experiment in which the subjects were asked to inflict increasing levels of pain on a ‘victim’, the large majority of his subjects being men. He never tried using a female ‘victim’, but he speculates, “As victims they [women] would most likely generate more disobedience, for cultural norms militate against hurting women even more strongly than hurting men.” Of course we know that, while this is true in theory, in the real world the opposite is often true, and men frequently hurt women as soon as they are given any kind of social authorization (she’s his wife, she’s his girlfriend, she’s a prostitute, it’s a frat party/surf party/football tour) to go ahead and do so. I wonder if subsequent sociologists have commented on his naivety.

  8. tommy Skiens

    I have attached a short story about an experience I had within 20 miles of My Lai in 1968. This is one of many bad experiences I had that year. We killed lots of unarmed people but it taught me who I am; Calley or Thompson.

    [Trigger Warning: linked material recounts witnessing of rape and later witnessing of rapists bragging ~moderator]
    link

  9. Helen

    Another instance of homosocial bullying here (TW for rape “joke”, which spoils an otherwise awe inspiring piece of writing.)
    http://www.heathenscripture.com/anzac-day-not-for-faggots-and-towelheads/

    Why is that ostracism such a strong tool in so many male relationships, especially amongst groups of men who are not close friends, or who may not even know each others’ names?

    Because this behaviour isn’t visible to society. Time and time again I read the factoid in articles and comments: “Girls are worse than boys, boys just hit each other and then forget about it, girls use social rejection and exclusion.” And so they reckon, for ever amen, despite the evidence. People see what they think they are going to see.

  10. Gareth Chan

    Echoing Chris’ comment (#4). This is only a personal observation, but having grown up as a male, I find that boys just as much as girls will do anything to bring themselves (and one another) into harmony with their group. For most, acting independently is what has to be explained, demonstrated, learned and practised.
    Most boys (and girls?) also seem to have an emotional bias towards ideas that make them feel like part of a pattern, or larger whole. Many toxic traditions are very good at that, unfortunately, which IMO is one of the main reasons they survive.
    Perhaps Thompson was one of those rare individuals whose need to be true to their own thinking is naturally stronger than their need for harmony with others. Then again, perhaps he achieved that independence through hard work – that would be the more hopeful explanation!
    May I also add some belated praise for these very thoughtful Anzac Day posts – please don’t give up the good work!

  11. WildlyParenthetical

    There’s a big load of theory about the formation of masculinity around hierarchies and the way that homosociality carefully keeps men in line. It’s particularly depressing to teach men such things, and have them nod and say ‘it’s true’ and watch the guilt mixed in with uncertainty and a bit of defensiveness in their eyes as I try to point out the injustices it often works to perpetuate.

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